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Solar Hot Water Company Fields Solar for Brownstone Questions

1:19 PM 02/26/2013

 

solarusa

Hi, my name is Ian and I am from SolarUSA, a solar thermal company in Long Island City. This post is for anyone interested in learning more about solar hot water for their brownstone. If you have any general solar questions please feel free to ask those as well. 
 
Cheers,
Ian
www.getsolarusa.com

 

 

8 answers
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  • vote

    dnk

    Bedford Stuyvesant, NY

    okay Ian, I'm game.  What would the lay of the land be for setting up solar hot water on a brownstone -- say, mine, which is 3 stories and 2 families?  Currently we've got 50-gallon tanks in basement that are hooked to gas lines that go to separate meters for tenant/owner.   What would a solar system look like?  Tanks on roof?  Or panels that feed to basement? Any batteries needed for the solar?  etc.   What about cost?  What are your guarantees, and how long does equipment last?

    1:26 PM 02/26/2013 | 1 Votes

     

     

    Comments (9)

    • solarusa

      Hi DNK,Thank you for your post. In order to answer some of your questions I need a couple of bits of information. How many people are living in each family? How many bathrooms are in the brownstone? Are there any washers in the brownstone? How many kitchens are there, and how many dishwashers? With these answers I can be a bit more specific some of the material and the cost. Either way our system would have the panels on the roof with our solar storage tanks in the boiler room. There are no batteries for our system, the only additional power needed is the minute amount of electricity needed to power our solar pump. We have a manufacturer's warranty on both the panels and the solar storage tank. We have existing systems running for over 10 years without problem from either. I look forward to your reply and thanks again for replying to my post.

      5:04 PM 02/26/2013

          

    • dnk

      Bedford Stuyvesant, NY

      Ian, thanks for your response. Two people in a duplex, one person in the other apartment. Three bathrooms, and one deep old clawfoot tub that definitely gets use as bathtub. Two separate washers, for tenant and owner. Two kitchens, but only one of them has a dishwasher. Look forward to hearing from you.

      7:07 PM 02/26/2013

          

    • dnk

      Bedford Stuyvesant, NY

      Quick edit: one person in tenant's apartment, but we should plan for two as that apartment is ideal for two or a small family (couple plus child).

      7:09 PM 02/26/2013

          

    • solarusa

      DNK,Thank you for the additional information. The system would include 2 panels on your roof, with an 80 gallon solar storage tank in the boiler room that would feed into both existing tanks. As your cost you are looking at about $12,000. This cost is before you take the 30% federal tax credit and the 25% state tax credit up to $5,000. So after we take these into account, you are looking at a cost of $5,400. Our estimated payback for a system like this is 5-7 years. All of these numbers are estimates from what you have told me and without visiting the site. As far as permits go, it is on a case by case basis and depends on whether we apply/receive grant money from NYSERDA or the city. I hope this answers your questions. If you have any other, please let me know.

      1:52 PM 02/27/2013

          

    • dnk

      Bedford Stuyvesant, NY

      Ian, thank you. About the fed/state tax credits: what are the programs? Are they rebates or credits? Is this a sure thing? About the system: what temp can you maintain 80 gallon tank at? And for how long -- let's say over several very overcast days near winter solstice?

      9:07 PM 02/27/2013

          

    • steam_man

      Carroll Gardens, NY

      Ian, Please describe the system you intend to use and the manufacturer. Also how you will connect it to the existing hot water system/allow for primary hot water interface with the solar thermal system.

      10:53 AM 02/28/2013

          

    • solarusa

      If you go here: http://getsolarusa.com/faqs/ you can get a great Idea about the highest and lowest production months with solar. The tanks that we use will have a heat loss factor of about 1 degree per hour. During the winter months the tank would average about 110-120 degrees from the sun. So even during the winter months we would be feeding your existing hot water heater with 100 degree water( ).So worst case scenario would be to have your hot water heater increasing the water temperature 20-30 degrees(100 degrees to 130 degrees) , rather then from ground water temperature of 52 degrees to 130 degrees. Much less work for your existing hot water heater.The other thought would be to remove your existing hot water heater and installing a tankless hot water heater. Rinnai, Navian, etc. These units are wall mounted, side vented thru the building and look like a piece of modern furniture but have efficiency ratings between 90-96%. All vented with schedule 40 PVC piping. This means when it is running and you put your hand on the exhaust pipe it hardly feels warm. (try to touch your existing flue pipe on your boiler or hot water heater while it is running, this is the 25% of your fuel bills going up the chimney.) These hot water heaters can give you up to 5.6 gallons of hot water a minute with a 60 degree temp rise. The advantage of this would be to only make hot water when you need it, and not burn fuel to keep 130 degree temperature water on standby 24/7 -365. We love the idea of the solar system becoming the primary source of hot water with your wall mounted boiler becoming the back up. If the solar water temperature isnt at 120-130 degrees then a tankless back up would boost the solar water temperature up to your domestic hot water temperature needs. This way you never waste any energy.

      3:03 PM 02/28/2013

          

    • solarusa

      They are federal and state tax credits, dollar for dollar. http://www.dsireusa.org/incent... is more information on the state credit while more information on the federal credit you can see here: http://www.dsireusa.org/incent...

      3:03 PM 02/28/2013

          

    • solarusa

      Dnk, I hope this helps answer your question. Steam Man,We use local manufacturers for our flat-panels, and for our evacuated tubes we use both local and international manufacturers. For our solar storage tanks we use the best German made storage tanks as they have the best in field performance that we have seen. The solar system becomes the primary interface in our system, and if the performance does not meet the temperature needed it than utilizes the existing system as a back-up where we feed the existing system with pre-heated water from our solar system or if there is no existing system we install a back-up, which we try and use tank-less for. I hope this answers your question.

      3:07 PM 02/28/2013

          

  • vote

    steam_man

    Carroll Gardens, NY

    Good luck, Ian. I tried this 3 years ago. People aren't that interested. I hope your venture turns out better than mine.

    2:26 PM 02/26/2013 | 1 Votes

     

     

    Comments (1)

    • solarusa

      Thank you for your comment Steam Man. We are hoping to convert some believers as we have had some great production with our systems. I wish you good luck with your future endeavors.

      5:05 PM 02/26/2013

          

  • vote

    augustiner

    Bedford Stuyvesant, NY

    From a logical perspective nobody in their right mind would use gas to heat up water, when it´s 90 degrees outside.
    But Energy prices are still very low compared with europe for example, and it looks like prices for gas will stay low for a long time
    Happy Fracking!

    3:07 PM 02/26/2013 | 0 Votes

     

     

  • vote

    cmu

    Yes, please give ballpark figures so we can compute a ROI. I suspect it's over 10 years. But I'd be interested if it was lower, say, 5. Also, what's the permitting like?

    3:57 PM 02/26/2013 | 0 Votes

     

     

    Comments (2)

    • solarusa

      CMU,Thank you for your post. Keep watching my discussion with DNK for answers to your questions. I will go over approximate ROI for the system we discuss and the necessary permitting if any.

      5:08 PM 02/26/2013

          

    • solarusa

      CMU, please see my updated comment on DNK's responses to see answer your questions as per our company.

      4:36 PM 02/27/2013

          

  • vote

    gennady

    Brooklyn, NY

    if you would install boilers for under $5k, then it would be interesting proposition, with solar?  fogetabotit.

    7:29 PM 02/26/2013 | 0 Votes

     

     

    Comments (3)

    • solarusa

      Gennady,If we are just talking about boilers, why don't you spend a little extra and get a wall-mounted boiler that is in the high 90s in efficiency rating and takes up very little room on the wall in as small a space as a closet. If you don't go solar, its the 2nd best option.

      1:54 PM 02/27/2013

          

    • gennady

      Brooklyn, NY

      Then it will not be under $5k. People will rather buy $5k countertop for the kitchen the spend money for good heater. And why are you offering calculations on ROI? I never heard this argument in buying kitchen or renovation. Imaging picture: general contractor offering new doors saying you will get your money returned in 5 years if you install this kind of doors.

      6:32 AM 02/28/2013

          

    • solarusa

      Genneady,Depending on who installs it, but yes it probably will be over $5k. I offer approximate calculations on ROI because it is a financial investment. While it is a physical structure as opposed to a bond/stock/mutual fund, it is still an investment where we take into account ROI. I do agree that a lot of people would rather put that money elsewhere in their homes and I completely understand that. As a company we are trying to make this more of a financial decision than one for your conscience. If our job is in the 10-12k range, with incentives you are looking at around a $5k job for a solar system. I thank you for discussing this with me.

      9:52 AM 02/28/2013

          

  • vote

    silvermax

    Park Slope, NY

    I definitely encourage people to explore this. We have solar panels for electricity, no more room for solar thermal unfortunately, but anything you can do to reduce your gas (as he says above, happy fracking) is to the good. Two of our neighbors also went solar as a result of seeing us do it. Start a trend on your block!

    8:03 PM 02/26/2013 | 0 Votes

     

     

    Comments (1)

    • solarusa

      Hey Silvermax,Its great that you started this trend. Keep on preaching the good word on solar!Ian

      1:55 PM 02/27/2013

          

  • vote

    daveinbedstuy

    Bedford Stuyvesant, NY

    Geothermal is much more efficient but not here in Brooklyn.  I wonder if anyone has ever laid geothermal tubing 9not the well based geothermal) throughout their yard here????

    7:53 AM 02/27/2013 | 0 Votes

     

     

    Comments (1)

    • gennady

      Brooklyn, NY

      And what makes you think geothermal more efficient than solar? Efficiency is output divided to input. Geothermal consumes power in electricity and outputs it in heat or cool. You are paying for electricity Solar gets free solar energy you are not paying for this energy you are paying for initial installation and maintenance and repairs only.

      6:40 AM 02/28/2013

          

  • vote

    steam_man

    Carroll Gardens, NY

    cmu,
    The ROI is 8-10 years. Closer to 10 now that gas is so cheap. It's not so much a money saver as much as a positive thing to do for the environment. Install cost are around $15-20k, at least I was never able to get them any lower, and trust me I wasn't making much at all on that. Look I run a for-profit business, when there is no profit, there is no business. We concentrate on the conventional stuff now and although I still firmly believe in environmental stewardship, I have to focus on making the conventional heating and cooling methods as environmentally friendly as possible. If someone wants a solar thermal system, we can and will do it for them. The systems are awesome and I do love them, I just couldn't count on them to keep my business afloat.

    10:07 AM 02/27/2013 | 0 Votes

     

     

    Comments (1)

    • solarusa

      Hi Steam man,I am sorry to hear that it wasn't working out for you. We are able to keep install costs for jobs that we discussed above at around 12k and even lower depending on our panel/evacuated tube cost. On some of our multi-family apartment buildings we are seeing 4-5 year paybacks, while on brownstones we are looking at 5-7 or 5-8 year depending on gas prices and grant money. While gas prices are very low now, this trend will not continue once we as a country start exporting natural gas as we can see that international demand for this will increase. I wish you good luck with your company!-Ian

      5:54 PM 02/27/2013

          

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